China’s EV Pioneers: What a four-hour conversation with Li Xiang reveals about China’s EV revolution
How China’s most influential tech leaders think about business, life, and the future
In mid-August, Luo Yonghao — one of China’s best-known entrepreneurs-turned-internet personalities — launched his new podcast, 罗永浩的十字路口 Luo Yonghao’s Crossroads, across multiple platforms. His first two guests were Li Xiang, founder and CEO of Li Auto, and He Xiaopeng, chairman and CEO of XPeng. Li spoke with Luo for nearly four hours, while He joined for a two-hour-and-forty-five-minute conversation.
Both companies belong to the group colloquially known as “Hua-Mi-Wei-Xiao-Li” — shorthand for Huawei, Xiaomi, NIO (Weilai), XPeng (Xiaopeng), and Li Auto (Li Xiang). Alongside BYD, China’s largest EV maker, these firms represent the first tier of China’s new energy vehicle players, often setting the pace for innovation and competition in the world’s fastest-growing EV market. For background on the rise of China’s podcasting scene and how it compares with the U.S. Ecosystem, Zichen Wang has an insightful write-up at Pekingnology.
Li and He were already accomplished entrepreneurs before venturing into EVs. Yet rather than resting on their earlier successes, they chose to take on the challenge of what has become one of the fiercest business battlegrounds anywhere: China’s electric vehicle industry. Years later, both have secured their own place in this intensely competitive market.
In this edition, I’ve selected 11 highlights from Li Xiang’s marathon conversation with Luo Yonghao, translated them into English and shared them here. Each excerpt explores a different theme.
I’ve long believed that the stories and experiences of Chinese entrepreneurs remain underappreciated in the global business community. They deserve more recognition for at least two reasons.
First, while supportive government policies helped fuel China’s EV boom, the entrepreneurial drive of leaders like Li and He has been just as critical. Listen closely to their conversations and you’ll notice how familiar they are with the legends of Silicon Valley — from Steve Jobs to Elon Musk — yet their ability to adapt to China’s uniquely unforgiving market is remarkable, and worth documenting.
Second, these entrepreneurs — or the products they build — are increasingly likely to show up in your daily life. Whether in the form of cars, robots, or even low-altitude aircraft in the coming decade, their creations will be central to the next wave of global business and tech headlines. Knowing the people and ideas behind them offers a richer perspective than simply recognizing them as “brands from China.”
About Luo Yonghao
Luo, 53, is a man of many hats. He first gained fame in China as an English teacher with a sharp sense of humor, known for his engaging stage presence. He later ventured into the world of entrepreneurship, founding Smartisan Technology, a smartphone company. However, his path to success has been far from smooth. He’s faced significant financial struggles and has publicly shared his debts, which once reached over a billion yuan. Despite these setbacks, Luo’s resilience and candidness have kept him in the public eye.
About Li Xiang
Li, a Millennial, instead of taking China's national college entrance exam, decided to drop out of school at 18 and pursue his entrepreneurial dreams. He founded Li Auto, which went public on the Nasdaq in 2020. Under his leadership, the company has become a major player in China’s EV market.
In their four-hour conversation, Luo and Li, who come from different generations, shared their entrepreneurial journeys and discussed the rapid evolution of China’s tech and automotive industries.
Part 1
Li's First PC and the Early Signs of an Entrepreneurial Mind
Li reveals how his father’s willingness to invest in his first PC sparked his tech journey, while his mother’s tough-love financial lessons taught him the value of money from an early age. Despite not growing up in a business-savvy family, Li’s natural entrepreneurial instincts shone at a young age. (07:01-11:38)
Luo: Let me start by asking about your first PC. I remember reading in the media that your father spent 8,000 yuan (about 1,100 U.S. dollars), which was quite a sum back then, to buy it for you. The story goes that you kept begging him until he finally gave in and bought it for you. Is that true?
Li: Yes, it was when I graduated from junior high. That’s when he bought the computer for me.
Luo: How much was your father earning per month at that time?
Li: At that time, my father had started going out to film [Editor's note: Li's father was a director]. I estimate that our family had around 20 to 30 thousand yuan in savings, so he probably spent about a third of that to buy the computer.
Luo: That’s quite a big deal.
Li: My father was very interesting.
Luo: Was it because he was open-minded and understood these trends, or was it because he spoiled you? Are you an only child?
Li: I’m an only child. Later, I realized that my father was truly exceptional. He never put conditions on me, and I now do the same with my kids. My relationship with them is great too. He believed that when you should have something, he would just give it to you. For example, I was the first one in our neighborhood to own an FC, the Nintendo game console.
Luo: We used to have to go to those old, rundown arcades, where you’d pay by the hour just to play.
Li: Yes, he was in Beijing filming, and he saw how popular it was in the Drum Tower area. He bought one for me and brought it back.
Luo: Was he worried that it would affect your studies?
Li: Not at all. It was quite interesting—completely different from what you might expect. He made an agreement with me that I could play every day, but only for a certain amount of time. Once the time was up, I had to stop.
Luo: So, he actually discussed this with you, right? It wasn’t an authoritarian thing? Li: Exactly, and he didn’t set a strict number for the hours. For example, I decided to play two hours every day at lunchtime, and he let me play for exactly two hours. Kids in our neighborhood would come over to our place to play.
Luo: You really had a lucky family, because Asian parents are rarely like this, especially in those days.
Li: Yes, and I could really stick to it. I would stop playing after two hours. In fact, later, I even told him that I didn’t need to play for two hours and would be fine with just one and a half hours.
Luo: So, his respect and trust in you was also linked to your own behavior. Because many kids would say they’d play for two hours, but end up playing for four, and their parents would certainly stop them after that.
Li: Exactly, but he made me stick to it. It was a long enough period. Since we had to go home during lunchtime back then, it meant I could play until lunch was over, but if I played for too long, I wouldn’t be able to attend class in the afternoon.
Luo: Back then, playing Nintendo was so addictive that kids would skip school just to play. You must have had a strong sense of discipline from a young age, right?
Li: I think it was because I had this kind of approach that I developed discipline.
Luo: So you’re saying it was the way your father communicated with you—mutual respect?
Li: Yes, I think that was really important.
Luo: That was actually quite rare in Chinese families of that era.
Li: In our neighborhood, my parents were the only ones who went to university.
Luo: Their views were relatively ahead of their time compared to the wider social environment.
Li:Yes.
Luo: I see. You mentioned that getting the PC for 8,000 yuan was a smooth process. Did you have to explain a lot to your father, or was he immediately on board?
Li: It was a smooth process, no difficulty at all. My mom had a different way of dealing with things, which I found especially important later on. My mom was very different from other parents. From elementary school, she gave me an allowance on a monthly basis. Most kids got a daily allowance of one yuan, but I got 30 yuan per month. She told me I could spend it however I wanted, but once it was gone, I couldn’t ask her for more. So, in the first month, I spent all 30 yuan in just three days. I went to my mom asking for more, but she didn’t give me any for the rest of the month. From then on, I learned how to manage money. Eventually, I even saved up for a few months and spent over 100 yuan to buy a game card I wanted. It also led to me starting to make money when I entered junior high school because I realized this was quite interesting.
Luo: She subtly instilled basic financial management concepts in you.
Li: Yes, I started making money in junior high by buying comic books. We noticed that the comic books that cost 1.9 yuan were available at wholesale markets for 1.2 yuan, so I bought them in bulk and sold them to my classmates for 1.5 or 1.6 yuan each.
Luo: So, you had a strong sense of business from a very early age.
Li: It wasn’t something I deliberately pursued.
Luo: I know, I know. It might have been something you were born with, or maybe it was your parents’ early education and communication that helped you naturally develop that sense.
Li:You’ll notice that my classmates didn’t have that awareness at all. They just didn’t get it.
Luo: I didn’t have that business sense even at 30 years old. I’ve read many biographies of entrepreneurs, and many of them showed this kind of awareness from an early age, whether it was inborn or guided by their parents.
Li: But my parents didn’t have any special talent for business.
Luo: I think maybe it was their healthy communication style with you that had a subtle, positive influence. You were really quite lucky. We’ve all read Elon Musk’s biography. When he was a kid, he was already showing remarkable intelligence with computers. He once went to a lecture by a university professor, and after the lecture, he stayed up late discussing things with the professor. When his dad came to pick him up, he thought something was wrong, but the professor told him, “You really need to buy him a computer, or you’ll regret it.” After some hesitation, his dad bought him one. But you were luckier than him because your father made the decision on his own.
I still think I was quite lucky growing up. But looking back, I think the environment you grew up in was even better than mine. I had a good foundation in reading, but in other ways, my parents still had a lot of outdated ideas. I ended up seeing a psychiatrist. It was really quite fortunate.
Part 2
From Being Mocked to Mastery
Li Xiang recalls his childhood ambition of becoming a "General Manager," a dream that was met with mockery by classmates and family. However, his path was shaped by external validation, particularly after he got his first computer, which led to a summer of hands-on learning and earning. (14:46-18:30)
Luo: You immediately had this feeling when you first touched a computer, right?
Li: Yes.
Luo: When you were young, you didn’t necessarily think you were smarter than your peers, but did you ever feel like you had some kind of innate sense of purpose? Not necessarily something you’d share with your classmates, maybe out of shyness or because you didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, but did you ever feel like you were meant to do big things?
Li: When I was a child, there was one thing. It was probably when I was in elementary school. Back then, there was a subject called moral education. The teacher asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up, and I said I wanted to be a general manager. Luo: At that time, that was the biggest title. Later, it became CEO, Chairman, Board Chairman—these titles just kept getting bigger.
Li: At that time, being a general manager was the biggest.
Luo: Yes, yes. When we were young, the title of "general manager" was a very prestigious one.
Li: At that time, my classmates would mock me for it. Definitely, because everyone else wanted to be a soldier, a scientist, or a doctor.
Luo: What year was that? Was individual entrepreneurship already common by then? Li: It should have been the early 1990s.
Luo: I remember you were born in '82?
Li: I was born in '81. Anyway, it was around the 90s.
Luo: Yes, actually, in those days, the idea of becoming a general manager would definitely seem strange in the eyes of teachers and students.
Li: But in reality, I didn’t just have this idea because of some innate desire. My decisions and choices were always based on real external feedback, not like when we were kids, where I was born with such a purpose.
Luo: When I was young, it was probably even worse for me than for you. I grew up in a very backward area. You were in Shijiazhuang, right?
Li: Yes, Shijiazhuang city.
Luo: That’s still a big city. I grew up in the mountains of Northeast China. So, when I tried to talk about my ambitions, I was ruthlessly mocked. It wasn’t the classmates or teachers directly attacking me, but the teachers would smile in a strange way. They wouldn’t say anything cruel, but they clearly didn’t think much of it. And the classmates would always give me these weird smiles. The most discouraging part came from my older brother. He said, “You’re clearly a fool, why do you have all these unrealistic ideas?” I asked him, “How am I a fool?” And he said, “We’re all fools, why can’t you see that?” He kept telling me that, but I always felt like I could do something big. That feeling was severely discouraged when I was young, even though my parents didn’t criticize me, they also didn’t encourage me. They thought I was just daydreaming. So, you didn’t have a strong feeling of that kind, and didn’t suffer from this kind of discouragement when you were young.
Li: I was kind of like undergoing intensive training. I always relied on external feedback to build different changes. The first time I felt like I was the best was when I got the top score in an essay contest, even though my grades were generally poor.
Luo: Just the essay?
Li: But the real, stable cycle started after I got the computer, especially that summer before high school. That summer before high school, I completely changed into a different person.
Luo: Because of the computer?
Li:Because before, my computer knowledge was already solid. My computer knowledge was quite strong.
Luo: Just not enough hands-on practice.
Li: But it didn’t take long. Within a day, I had solved most of it.
Luo: I get it, I meant that when you had solid theoretical knowledge but very limited time in the computer lab.
Li: Yes, I had essentially created a really solid base model through pre-training. From then on, my reasoning and thinking process improved significantly.
Luo: You really built a strong foundation.
Li: The most important first feedback I got was from the store where I bought the computer. It was originally a small shop in a street with low traffic. Later, it moved to a large computer mall and did really well because the computers were all DIY, with custom configurations. When I got home, I took the computer apart and rebuilt it. Later, I did something else: I helped that shop assemble computers at the computer mall. The business was booming, and they didn’t have enough staff. I was good at talking, so when I recommended the configurations to others, they trusted me a lot.
Luo: You have a face that inspires trust, so you definitely had an advantage in selling computers.
Li: At that time, I was particularly impressed. I had worked with Intel CPUs, Asus motherboards, and Philips monitors. I’d played with all of them. When a computer was sold, I would explain the price and configuration to the customers. If they needed hardware that the store didn’t have, I would go to other shops to find it and then come back to assemble the computer. Each computer sold earned me 800 to 1,000 yuan, and I would get a commission of 150 to 200 yuan per computer assembled. It was great feedback. During that entire summer, I assembled the most and sold the most, making our store number one in sales at the computer mall. When I started high school, everyone at the school knew that if they wanted a computer assembled, they should come to me. Even writing articles, it wasn’t something I just did casually; I learned from user feedback.
Part 3
The Power of Standing Up
Li recalls his difficult childhood, being bullied after moving to a new city and feeling inferior due to his accent, appearance, and background. It wasn’t until his mother urged him to fight back that he stood up to the bullies, gaining confidence and respect from his peers. (29:08-33:11)
Luo: It all sounds so lucky. Tell me about your childhood trauma, the setbacks and frustrations in your teenage years, maybe even a first love heartbreak. You seem to have had it so easy—did you really not face any setbacks before you turned 18?
Li: When I first moved back to Shijiazhuang, all the kids in the neighborhood bullied me. Luo: Because you had just moved there?
Li: I had a heavy accent from rural Cangzhou. Luo: So they mocked you.
Li: Yeah, kids are like that. When I first joined the school, I was an “insert student,” so I sat at the side of the teacher's desk, not at a regular desk. It was really tough for a while, and the other kids would bully me. The older kids, too. Most of the scars on my face are from when they scratched me in elementary school. They hit me so hard that they scratched my face to pieces. When you're in a new environment, you don't dare to fight back.
Luo: I also got bullied when I transferred schools, but it wasn’t to the point of getting my face scratched off.
Li: Yeah, they were so mean, kids can be unbelievably cruel. When I look at things like school bullying today, we all went through it back then.
Luo: Back then, calling the police didn’t help, unlike now. These days, if you call the police, the parents end up paying.
Li: My mom told me, "You can only fight back yourself."
Luo: Your parents raised you like that, so you had no choice but to follow it. It’s kind of amazing.
Li: My mom said, "You have to fight back, there’s no other way." I was from Cangzhou, Mengcun County. When I was little, I practiced Bajiquan, so I was actually quite good at fighting. Luo: A famous martial arts region. Li: Yes, and my older brother was a martial arts master, so the whole neighborhood of students practiced with him.
Luo: So why didn’t you resist at first? Li: When you enter a new environment, you actually feel a sense of inferiority. They all spoke Mandarin, but when I spoke, they couldn’t understand me. Luo: And they mocked you. Li: At the time, I was really dark from the sun, from my hometown.
Luo: Maybe you had some countryside redness, too. Li: And my teeth were yellow because the water in Cangzhou had a lot of alkali. You feel like you don’t belong there. Luo: You lacked confidence, so when they hit you, you didn’t fight back. Li: After my mom said that, a few months later, I told her, "They keep bullying me and hitting me. Look at what they’ve done to my face!" She said, “You have to fight back." So I started fighting back. I first hit the biggest one, the one who was two years older than me. After that, my mom said, “You can't bully others.”
Luo: When I was young, I remember always being beaten up. In the second semester of my first year of junior high, I got so angry that I ended up fighting back. As they say, even a rabbit will bite when it’s cornered. I wasn’t the kind of kid who bullied others or fought, but when I was pushed too far, I fought back, and I realized something. There were local thugs who used to come to our school to bully us. After I fought back, they started trying to get on my good side. I quickly understood that when they bully you, they’re calculating the risks and costs. If you’re an easy target, they’ll keep bullying you, but once you fight back, even if you get beaten badly like I did, it’s worth it. They know you’ll resist, and they’ll stop bullying you. After that, when the thugs came around the school, the younger kids started calling me “bro,” and the local tough guys, hearing about how I fought back, came over to befriend me. So, one act of resistance worked. Later, when I started teaching, I would tell my students: if you’re bullied, just resist once and it’ll be over.
Li: You’re right. And another thing is, when I first didn’t tell my mom about it, I was worried that if I fought back, the other kids would start avoiding me. But after I fought back, they actually all started becoming friends with me. I became the "king" of the neighborhood kids. Luo: The more you tolerate, the worse they get.
Li: It got worse and worse.
Luo: So when I later talked to my students, I often told them: whether it's school bullying or when you grow up and face bullying in society, you have to fight back fiercely once. I even see it as a rite of passage. Some people are still timid well into their 30s, always getting bullied. I think this is a matter of fate. Some kids, no matter their upbringing or natural instincts, just keep tolerating it.
Li: I was worried that if I fought back, the other kids would isolate me. But I found out that after I fought back, they all started getting close to me. I became the "king" of the neighborhood kids.
Part 4
The Idols Who Shaped Li
Li shares how his admiration for Shigeru Miyamoto and Steve Jobs evolved over time, with Miyamoto inspiring his youth through Nintendo and Jobs shaping his views on design and leadership. Li also shared his love for Toy Story, the Pixar movie. (55:16-1:01:07)
Luo: So, you didn’t start AutoHome because you liked cars, but in fact, you do really like cars.
Li: At first, I didn’t like cars at all. How much did I dislike them? When we were doing the auto website, Fan Zheng had suggested it early on. He was a car enthusiast, and every year we would go to the car show in Beijing. He was always so excited. During the car show, all he would do is look at cars—it was like a holiday for him. I found it super boring and asked, “Why do you guys love this stuff so much?” It wasn’t until 2003, after their advice, that I bought my first car. By then, I had money and didn’t have to worry about fast development. It was just a small business, but I was making money, so I bought my first car, and that’s when I gradually started liking cars.
Luo: So, you began to like cars while working at AutoHome?
Li: Yes, I bought a car first, learned about them, and then started really liking them after deciding to work on AutoHome.
Luo: In the whole process, from thinking about entrepreneurship to actually starting your business, and up until now, did you have any commercial or technological idols or heroes? Back in the day, we all read Bill Gates' The Road Ahead?
Li: I’ve always had two idols. One is Shigeru Miyamoto. I really like Nintendo, and all the games he created.
Luo: Nintendo is such a dreamy company, almost unreal.
Li: Yes, it’s a very unusual company.
Luo: It’s amazing, truly magical.
Li: When I was younger, I always liked Miyamoto. Back then, I bought every Nintendo console. All those game books used to talk about him.
Luo: In my era, all the Nintendo cartridges were pirated. The machines were often knockoffs, so I never used the originals. I didn’t even know what the real ones were like—I just knew they came from a Japanese game company, and the pirated ones had Japanese writing on them. My family finally bought me one when the Famicom had already been around for many years, and by then it was cheap. I didn’t know whether the cartridges were original or pirated—I just bought whatever was available. Later, I realized most of them were pirated. Occasionally I’d get an authentic one, and it felt unreal—it was so beautifully made.
Pirated versions were always “100-in-1” or “200-in-1.” I grew up feeling like we all owed Stephen Chow a movie ticket. I feel the same about my childhood joy—it was all built on pirated games. Later, when I bought a Switch, it was the first time I ever created a Nintendo account. I’ve had it for years now but have probably played less than 10 hours in total. Every time I think about it, I just leave it there. I keep feeling like I owe Miyamoto something.
Li: Yes, Miyamoto was my idol when I was young. Later, as I grew up, it was really Steve Jobs.
Luo: When did you start thinking Jobs was really impressive? Was it with the iPod? Or earlier?
Li: I think it was when the iPod came out.
Luo: Because, after he was kicked out of Apple, for many years he was seen as a joke in Silicon Valley. I found him strange back then. I didn’t know much about him. But when I bought my first iPod, I was shocked. At that time, it wasn’t officially introduced, so it was sold through gray-market dealers at ridiculously high prices. When I first bought it, it was all about the industrial design. It was so beautiful, like a sci-fi product. I plugged it into my computer, transferred some songs, and was amazed. I thought, how could something be this easy to use? It was a thousand times more convenient than playing songs on a computer.
Li: I had bought a Mac earlier, but didn’t feel much about it.
Luo: Back then, Macs had serious compatibility issues and a lack of software ecosystem.
Li: Yes, after buying a Mac, we still had to buy software to install a virtual Windows.
Luo: Did Macs get better to use, or was it more about the iPod that brought in more developers?
Li: Yes, exactly. There’s something else that really influenced me. My favorite movie of all time is Toy Story, and I didn’t realize until later that it was made by his company.
Luo: He was the major shareholder of Pixar.
Li: I really love Toy Story. I felt like I was the cowboy in it. It was just an amazing feeling. Later on, I would watch every Pixar movie with great attention.
Luo: So, your business idols in life, or in terms of products and technology, are Steve Jobs and Shigeru Miyamoto?
Li: Yes, and in addition to watching various videos and analyzing Jobs, I’ve also studied Tim Cook and Jonathan Ive’s interactions. Many times, I feel like what’s written about Jobs isn’t exactly who he was, but when you look at the collaboration between him, Tim Cook, and Jonathan, you get a more authentic picture.
Luo: What exactly do you mean by that?
Li: People often point to the early, rough side of Jobs as an example. But when you look at what Jonathan Ive talks about, you realize that it’s not about being rough or simple; it’s about high expectations that come after trust is built. The problem is, many of us when we were young misunderstood it as just being harsh. But it wasn’t like that. It was about trust first, then high demands. The attitude was a result of those high expectations. If trust isn’t built first, it’s just plain harshness. That’s the fundamental difference.
Luo: Because there is trust, everyone holds themselves to a high standard. If the standard is not met, then people argue. But if there’s no foundation of trust, it only makes things worse.
Li: And he spent a lot of time building that trust, which I think is very important, but many people overlook it. Without trust, things will go wrong.
Part 5
Li Auto's Fundraising Turning Point
Li’s journey through a near-financial collapse took a dramatic turn when, after exhausting all options, the major food delivery and e-commerce platform Meituan’s CEO offered a lifeline. His timely investment changed Li Auto’s trajectory, marking a pivotal moment in the company’s survival and success. (1:37:29-1:45:28)
Luo: So, was your most serious funding issue before or after the release of the Li One?
Li: It was in early 2019.
Luo: When exactly was the release?
Li: We released the Li One in October 2018.
Luo: So, by the time you were ready to mass-produce, you didn’t have enough funding?
Li: Yes, we were facing two major problems. First, Tesla's market value had dropped to just 30 billion dollars, and they were even considering buying back their own company. Everyone was shorting Tesla. The second problem was that NIO had performed well, but after their IPO, their stock price dropped below the issue price—from around 6 or 7 dollars to just over 1 dollar. And this was exactly when we needed to raise funds.
Luo: But at that time, no one wanted to invest.
Li: Exactly. We met with 150 investors, and to make sure we were presenting ourselves well, we even hired Goldman Sachs as our FA. It was an incredibly difficult period. To make matters worse, I was really sick—it was the worst I’d ever been. I pretended to be fine when meeting investors, but afterward, I had to rest for a long time.
Luo: So you were sick throughout the entire fundraising process?
Li: Yes, I vividly remember it. In the end, we couldn't raise the money we needed. It was our Series C round. The biggest investor in our Series B round was Zhang Ying from Matrix Partners. Zhang told us that they couldn't provide the amount of money we needed in the next round because they were a VC, not a PE. So he called us to his office, along with Goldman Sachs' China GM, and after analyzing the situation, they said there was nothing they could do. Then Zhang asked, “How much money do you have left?” I said, “I’ve put everything I have into this, even the money I earned earlier.”
Luo: At that point, you had already invested all your personal money?
Li: Yes, I invested all the money I had earned earlier—basically, I had nothing left. But I felt secure because my shares were bought with my own money, on equal terms.
Luo: What about your early partners? Did they do the same?
Li: They bought half and got half in options. They didn’t have original shares, and I didn’t either.
Luo: So Zhang Ying told you there was no way to raise the money. What did he suggest you do next?
Li: He suggested I go and visit some wealthy friends to see if there was any last chance.
Luo: I’m curious, what happened during those meetings? Tell me some gossip, just don’t mention names. Any interesting stories? We can’t be too serious on this show.
Li: Sure. One of our biggest partners, who we had worked with the most, ended up rejecting us.
Luo: Was it the boss of your business partner?
Li: Yes, he was an important partner, and he eventually rejected us. I also met with Zhang Yiming. They decided to invest, but only 30 million dollars. At that time, we needed several hundred million dollars, but he still recognized our potential and made that investment. However, ByteDance wasn’t as big as it is now.
Luo: I’m curious, what happened during the rejection?
Li: At that point, I was truly desperate. I had already accepted that only a "lucky break" could save us.
Luo: So, was this the biggest "lucky break" in your entrepreneurial journey?
Li: Yes, absolutely. And why was I so desperate? Because at that time, Meituan's stock price had also dropped significantly, even below the issue price. Things were tough for them too.
Luo: They were also struggling.
Li: Yes, they were. So I tried my best to explain to Wang Xing the value we could offer him, especially how we could help if they decided to enter the ride-hailing market.
Luo: Did they have plans to enter the ride-hailing market at that time?
Li: We didn't really think that far ahead, but I was trying to show them how we could provide value, even if it meant helping with logistics or EV production lines. I just wanted to get a foot in the door.
Luo: Where did this meeting take place?
Li: It was at the Hyatt Hotel. It was during the pandemic, so we couldn't go to many places, but I still met him there.
Luo: You didn’t ask for an investment, right? You just wanted to chat with him?
Li: Exactly. I didn’t ask for any investment at that time. We were just talking about potential collaborations. But then, out of nowhere, he asked me, "Can I invest in your company?" I was shocked.
Luo: When was this? How long after you rejected his investment?
Li: It was just a year later, in 2019.
Luo: At that time, how much funding did you need? A few billion yuan?
Li: We were trying to raise 300 million dollars.
Luo: So, that’s around 2 billion yuan, right?
Li: Yes, and he ended up investing 300 million dollars in us.
Luo: Seems like there were a lot of internal disagreements within Meituan about this investment, right?
Li: Yes, there were many people who didn’t want him to invest in us, because they had already invested in other competitors. Some had invested in Weima, others in NIO, and some in Xpeng. So there was a lot of persuasion to try to stop him from investing in us.
Luo: Do you think your fundraising ability ranks high, medium, or low among the top entrepreneurs?
Li: I would say I’m at the bottom, really at the underground level. The reason we were able to raise funds earlier was because I personally invested the same amount at the same valuation, so I was taking the same risk.
Luo: So, when the whole world was pessimistic about your company, it became even harder to raise funds, right?
Li: Exactly. The more pressure I faced, the more I moved forward. When there’s no pressure, I tend to take a step back. But when the pressure is high, I instinctively move forward.
Luo: And that pressure, once you survive it, can turn into a huge turning point, right?
Li: Exactly. When you face adversity, sometimes you have no choice but to push forward. But when you get through it, the breakthrough can be life-changing.
Part 6
China’s EV Revolution
Luo discusses China’s transformation from envy of foreign cars to leading the global electric vehicle market. Li credits strong manufacturing, a flexible talent pool, and government support for this rapid rise. (01:53:51-01:57:57)
Luo: You know, for people like us, at least people from my generation, the cars we envied the most when we were young were the foreign luxury cars on the streets—especially the really impressive ones. Then, when I first went abroad, I saw those cars on the streets and we envied them so much because of the high tariffs in China. I remember hearing from friends who studied or worked abroad about how much their cars cost, and we were so envious we could hardly stand it. Little did we know, in just over a decade, China’s new energy vehicles have become so impressive. Now, when I go to the U.S. on business trips, the streets are still filled with what they call the "best" cars in their market. But when my Chinese friends see those cars, they suddenly remark, “We used to envy these cars when we were young, but now, not even many years later, when we see all these foreign cars, all we think of is ‘foreign junk.’”
Honestly, every time I think about this, I get really excited. The moment I felt the most excitement was last year at the car show. It was all over the internet, and several big names were there, creating countless headlines. At that time, I thought to myself, how could Chinese cars become this impressive in less than ten years? I was so excited. So I wonder, with the full opportunities given to us, how many more miracles can Chinese entrepreneurs create?
Li: There are actually several important factors behind this. I think the first one is that China’s manufacturing base is actually very solid.
Luo: It’s already solid enough to be number one globally.
Li: Exactly. Even the equipment we use today is mostly made by Chinese companies. For example, the stamping machines—everything is made very well. The second factor is that people from all industries in China are willing to enter new fields. For example, people from the tech industry are now getting into car manufacturing. But in the U.S., only Elon Musk is willing to take on this hard work. Others tend to stay in Silicon Valley or Seattle and are only comfortable doing internet and software work.
Luo: They don’t want to do the dirty or tough work. They rely on high-tech, make big profits, and enjoy a comfortable lifestyle.
Li: Right, exactly. That’s the difference. People in China are willing to enter any industry—whether it's retail, manufacturing, or the car industry. New thinking and technology are transforming old industries, and it’s become a huge trend here.
Luo: Yes, new thinking and new technology are revamping old industries. It’s really becoming a trend.
Li: Exactly. The third reason why China’s new energy vehicles have taken off is also closely tied to the country itself. For example, oil in China is relatively expensive compared to the world; it's in the 70th or 80th percentile globally. But electricity in China is the cheapest in the world, and China’s power grid is also one of the best in the world.
Luo: And then there’s government policy support.
Li: Yes, exactly. Let me give you an example you might not expect. In many European countries, if you want to install a charging station, even if the government encourages it, you have to wait in line for nine months just to get one installed. In places like Singapore, if you want to install a charging station, you have a 99% chance that the homeowner’s committee will reject it, and you can’t install it.
Luo: They have the power to refuse it.
Li: In China, if you decide to install a charging station today, it’ll be done in three days. The company that installs it coordinates everything with the property management and the power grid. And in the end, you still get a special deal. These differences are huge. In China, using an electric car costs only one-tenth of the cost of using a fuel-powered car, but abroad, it’s about the same cost, and the convenience is much lower.
Luo: Yes. So, when I go to Europe on business, I can’t help but make some sarcastic remarks. I’ve seen many mediocre people from China who immigrated to Europe for family reasons. These were people I knew back home, with poor abilities and low overall competence. Yet, they end up working in Chinese companies in Europe, enjoying great benefits. We’ve even spoken to their bosses, and when I said, “Your team doesn’t seem that great,” their boss would reply, “You have no idea. The people we hire locally are much worse than yours. Here, they’re seen as top talents.” I really feel like we’re in a bittersweet moment globally. If it weren’t for geopolitics, I honestly think Chinese cars could dominate the world in the next 10 years.
Li: I also think there’s something interesting about China’s education system. We often criticize it, but it’s actually done a lot of good. For example, in the internet boom.
Luo: You mean basic technical education?
Li: From a technical perspective, yes. You see, the main talents behind the internet boom are those born between 1975 and 1995. This generation has excellent skills in STEM, which means they are very good at understanding software, engineering, and the digitalization of systems. And since there’s enough supply of talent, they are able to enter various industries—not just the internet industry, but all kinds of fields. This is an advantage of China’s systemic approach. With the help of the internet, mobile internet, and smartphones, this talent pool has grown, and they’ve become the foundation of digitalization in the automotive industry. However, in countries other than the U.S., where the competition in mobile internet and smartphones is not as fierce, they simply don’t have this kind of talent.
Part 7
Car Choices reveals different mentalities between the "Old Money" and the "New Money"
Old generations of Chinese manufacturing tycoons buy super luxury cars for some problems far beyond transportation, while the internet generation seems to be more frugal in their choices of cars. (02:01:36-02:05:48)
Luo: When a startup first jumps into hardware, of course there’s the challenge of inexperience. But there’s also this other thing: all those tests the big brands run—you simply can’t afford to replicate every single one of them, right?
Li: We ran all of them.
Luo: All of them? I figured you’d definitely run all the safety tests. But I didn’t expect you to actually do all the others too. So why were there still so many issues popping up?
Li: Because we've done something those big brands have never tried before.
Luo: So you are being innovative, while they keep being conservative, staying in their comfort zone.
Li: Yeah, we're doing what they've never done.
Luo: I can get it. I own a Li Auto myself, and I really like it. And you know me, with my kind of extra way of talking, I went around saying that the Li One is the best family SUV you can get under 5 million RMB (around 700 thousand U.S. dollars). Of course, the internet tore me apart for that. But actually there was some context behind what I said.
When I was down south, I had a bunch of friends in manufacturing, and we were hanging out a lot at the time. Most of them were older than me. I was born in the 70s, but some of them were 10 years older than me. And one thing about that generation of old-school entrepreneurs is that everyone had to drive a luxury car.
Otherwise, say the group goes out to play golf. If you roll up in a 3-million car, and I show up in a 5-million one, and another guy drives, let’s say, a BMW that costs just over 1 million—even though it’s still a luxury car—behind his back people will start saying, "Hey, what’s going on with him? Is his cash flow in trouble? Why’d he downgrade to something that cheap?" And that kind of talk could actually affect his business, far more than his pride. So in that circle, everyone’s driving cars in the 3-to-5-million range, sometimes even 10 million or more.
And because I was spending a lot of time with them talking business, eating and drinking, I ended up getting to ride in basically every so-called legendary luxury car out there. And you know what? I found most of them disappointing. But that’s just something I can say and you shouldn’t. Otherwise, you’ll get roasted online just like I did.
My reaction at the time was basically—wait a second, how can a car that costs five million, even ten million, actually be this bad? So I went online and started digging around, trying to find an explanation. And what I found was, once a car sells for several million, it’s not really about being a vehicle anymore—it’s solving a completely different kind of problem.
Like, take a rich kid in a five-million sports car. He pulls up in front of a bar, waves his hand, and then some girls might hop right in. But if you’re driving a 500-thousand car, you do the same thing, and all you’ll probably get is an eye-roll. So yeah, that’s the ‘need’ those ultra-expensive cars are actually built for.
So this is the thing about those entrepreneurs. In that circle, their old-school mindset just doesn't allow them to show up in a 500-thousand or even a 1-million car. You have to drive something that costs five million with one of those world-famous logos on it, so the moment people see it, they know, "Okay, that’s a five-million car." That way, you avoid all the unnecessary social headaches in that group.
Li: I completely understand.
Luo: And all of those, really, is about other functions beyond the car itself.
Li: And it's also the most socially cost-effective way for them. Like if you roll up to a hotel in a luxury car, you can just park it right out front. But if you’re not driving something fancy, they’ll send you straight down to the basement garage.
Luo: So whether it’s for business, vanity, or whatever reason—you realize none of it actually has anything to do with the car itself. That was the conclusion I came to after riding in all those luxury cars of my friends.
And when I told them about it, they just laughed and like, "Yeah brother, we know you’re not into this stuff. Honestly, we’re not that into it either." Most of the time it’s just part of their job—especially for the older generation.
Li: But the funny thing is, in Beijing’s internet circle, you don’t really see that kind of showy culture. Most people are pretty down-to-earth with what they drive.
Luo: Yeah, it’s the same in Silicon Valley, right? Back then everybody was driving Toyota. Even people like Larry Page were all in these cheap cars.
Li: Exactly. Maybe because we were also influenced by those Silicon Valley guys. I mean, look at Bill Gates, Larry Page…. The cars they drove were all pretty ordinary.
Luo: Actually, for the internet generation, if someone really showed up in an eight- or ten-million car, people would find this guy cheesy and laugh behind his back.
Li: The first person I knew to drive the most expensive cars was actually Elon Musk. Back then he bought a McLaren F1.
Luo: That was back when he was still young and had just made it big.
Li: Yeah, then he sold the company and bought that McLaren.
Luo: Every poor boy has his dream car, right?
Li: That car cost him 1.3 million U.S. dollars.
Luo: I bet when you earned your first pot of gold, you'd also bought a bunch of cars, maybe even a flashy one or two, right?
Li: I actually held back, you know. I just went with another McLaren that cost a little over 400 thousand bucks.
Part 8
Li's View on Internet Haters
Li Xiang believes that it's impossible to eliminate all the online trolls in today's traffic-driven internet environment, and improvements in products is the only way out. (02:26:17-02:27:53)
Luo: But why not just bring in a really seasoned PR heavyweight from the industry? I'm not talking about hiring them to throw mud on other companies, but they at least know all the tricks and have strategies to counter other's attack. Have you thought about that? The reason I’m especially curious is that back in the day, I got dragged through the mud myself real bad.
Li: Nobody had really faced something like the Mega situation before. Let me give you another example—take Zhong Shanshan from Nongfu Spring. He studied journalism and communications and was an excellent media guy. His marketing skills were top-notch, and he worked closely with major outlets, including CCTV. But once he ran into trouble, even someone like him couldn’t handle today’s crazy traffic-driven media environment.
Luo: That's today's environment. People are happy with rumors.
Li: But then there’s another side to it. Even if you can’t fully handle these negative online rumors, it's not going to kill you anyway. Sure, you might not have all the answers, but the damage is actually limited.
Luo: Exactly. If you can hold up solid power, all the rest is really just a gust of wind.
Li: If you can’t hold up, it proves your company really isn’t strong enough. And when a new hot topic comes up, all that attention will just jumps to the next thing. I think that’s how the society works today. Look at Elon Musk. He owns X, but those who want to smear him still do whatever they can to drag him down.
Luo: The logic is fine, but when you get roasted online, I'm quite surprised that you just sit there and take it. I can really feel for you, because not only that I own three Li models, but also it reminds me of all those times I got dragged online back when I was doing hardware.
Li: I think it’s fine. Honestly, we know exactly how they try to drag us down—and which companies are behind it all. It’s disgusting, but if I let myself stoop to that level, I feel like my life would be meaningless. I just don’t want to become that kind of person. Even if they come after me, I refuse to become like that.
And the only thing I can tell myself is that if all that hate actually affects us, it’s because our product isn’t good enough, and we need to work harder and make our product better. Sure, plenty of people have given us suggestions like setting up an anti-smear team and so on, but I don’t want to go down that road.
Part 9
Three key abilities to make a successful entrepreneur
Li Xiang believes that the three abilities to make a successful entrepreneur are being able to choose well, choose far, and most importantly, to play faster than others. (02:42:21-02:46:02)
Li: If you spend time on the wrong things, they end up affecting the important stuff. And if the unimportant things go wrong, you’ have to spend more time cleaning up the mess. So I've realized that if someone just focuses on the three most important things every day, that person can become really, really successful. But if they try to juggle ten "important" things in a day, unless they’re a super diligent genius, chances are none of those ten things will get done well.
Luo: Speaking of diligent genius, I think Lei Jun (the founder of Xiaomi Corporation) is undoubtfully among them.
Li: Yeah, there’s no way I can compete with him.
Luo: It feels like he only needs four or five hours of sleep a day.
Li: I’d catch him on Saturday or Sunday, and he’d still be working. And after chatting with me, he’d just move on to another appointment right after!
Luo: So there was this one time when Lei invited me for a chat outdoors at the tea terrace behind Pangu Plaza. It was past nine at night. We got really into talking, mostly about products, and before we knew it, it was morning. Since we were outside, nobody rushed us, and the waiter just waved and left, because Lei knew him.
I stretched and said, "Alright, I’m going back to sleep." He stretched and said, "I’m going back to work." I was like, "Wait… what? No rest?" He said he had a meeting in the morning, but a three-hour nap on the sofa would be enough.
Later, I told people in his company about this, and they said, "That’s just how he is." And that’s why they feel so pressured—no matter how hard you work, you can never match your boss.
Li: These people are not just capable—they’re insanely hardworking too. Which brings me back to what you were just talking about: learning isn’t really the whole truth. I’ve met all kinds of big shots, had deep conversations with them, including overseas folks, and I started noticing some key common traits. I’ve boiled it down to three.
First, everyone will tell you how they make choices, how they gather information, and how they make judgments. So the first trait is this—they choose well. They choose the right big trends. E-commerce, food delivery… the first rule is to choose correctly.
Second, which is a bit counterintuitive, but you hear it in all the success stories—they choose far. They can accept things to take a long time to show results, because things that yield quick results often comes with problems. Look at the really famous companies today—they’ve been around 20, 25 years. So the second rule is to choose far. And that’s not a bad thing. Sometimes projects that could finish in a year or two are in spaces where someone else can just jump in at any moment. The third one comes as the most critical. Honestly, people who can nail the first two are already one in a hundred, but the third is what really sets them apart. Every top entrepreneur I know, the best in the world like Jensen Huang, Wang Xing, Zhang Yiming, they all share this trait.
Most people think, "Okay, pick the right trend, pick for the long run, now we can just slowly work our way through." Wrong.
These people do something completely counterintuitive—they take a path that requires a long time to succeed, and they iterate at an insanely high frequency. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
Luo: The longer the game, the faster you have to play.
Li: Exactly. Most people think the key is patience or trying to be perfect. But that’s not it. The third thing is something almost nobody can do — really, almost nobody. When I was in the graphics card business, it was obvious that NVIDIA could release a new generation every single year, while others needed three years. That’s why they crushed brands like 3dfx Voodoo, and in the end it came down to just NVIDIA and AMD. And when NVIDIA built CUDA, it also took more than ten iterations before it finally worked out
Part 10
What does a Chinese entrepreneur's family look like?
Li's perception about family, his relationship with his wife and his children's education. (03:47:29-03:51:37)
Li: Back when I was running Autohome (An auto service platform founded by Li in 2005), I wasn’t really thinking about family at all. But when I started Li Auto, I positioned it for families—because by 2015, I already had two kids, and later on, even more. That changed my perspective.
Part of it also goes back to my childhood. I didn’t actually spend much time with my parents. In primary school I was raised mostly by my grandparents, and then for middle school I lived with my grandmother so I could be closer to a good school. By 18 I was already starting my first company, and soon after I moved to Beijing.
So in many ways, I only realized what "home" really means much later—after getting married, after building my own family. I used to think I wasn’t missing anything, but now I see that family is one of the most precious things.
Luo: And your relationship with your wife have always been strong.
Li: Yes, we got married in 2008 and had our wedding in 2009. And I’m most grateful for that change among the shareholders, because in the past I used to think all the problems were on my partner’s side — but I don’t see it that way anymore.
Luo: So that experience triggered a reflection that eventually reached into your family life as well.
Li: I think one really interesting thing about my relationship with my wife is that from the very beginning, I told her something very clearly: I need her far more than she needs me. And I genuinely believe that. I’ve always said it to her directly, and I think that’s been a very important part of our relationship. At the same time, she also wants to feel that she’s important to me, that she can actually support me.
What’s also quite interesting is that, even though she has to take care of our family everyday, she has developed a deep understanding of the auto industry. She reads all kinds of news, follows every company’s financial reports, and sometimes she even knows more than I do because I’m so caught up in my own work. Often, it’s her telling me what’s happening at other car companies. I find that fascinating. And she’s also very sensitive to my stress—she can tell when I’m under pressure, but she usually chooses not to point it out directly.
Luo: Some of my old friends from Smartisan still think I married one of my fans. But actually, she almost never interferes with what I do outside, while at home, I listen to her 100%. Sometimes she even jokes with me, saying that when we’re out, she’ll just pretend to be my fan. But that’s really not the case. I feel very lucky about this. Because for many entrepreneurs, if you don’t manage your family life well, then you lose your final safe harbor. And that’s a really tough thing to go through.
Li: Yes. At home, my wife is also the boss of everything. Even the money I earn, I hand it all over to her.
Luo: It actually feels pretty great. You know, during those ten golden years when the mobile internet was booming, a lot of young boys and girls caught the wave, built their careers, and made a fortune. But the truth is, quite a few of them ended up divorced—and the media loves to dig into those stories.
Li: Indeed.
Luo: You’re a very successful entrepreneur now, and you also have quite a big family. Have you ever thought about the possibility of those kind of "family feuds" drama that often comes with wealthy families?
Li: I’ve pretty much left that to my wife. From the time the kids were little, she’s always told them that brothers and sisters should never fight each other. What matters most is sticking together and protecting the family as a whole.
Luo: So you're quite confident in yourself, your wife and your children, right?
Li: These subtle influences actually matter a lot. They really shape the kids. At home they may bicker sometimes, but once they’re outside, especially at school, they stick together as one. I think that’s something you really have to cultivate from an early age.
Part 11
Which Chinese EV boss can be qualified as a super product manager?
Li believes that there's no shortcut to car R&D but time. Only with time, talent and hands-on management combined can someone create "super products". (03:54:27-03:56:19)
Luo: I’d like to follow up with a question: among all the leaders of China’s EV startups, who do you think also qualifies as a super product manager type of founder?
Li: Definitely Lei Jun.
Luo: You are the only two who really understand product.
Li: Or to be able to create "super products."
Luo: Yes, I feel the same.
Li: When it comes to developing a car, there are hardly any shortcuts other than putting in the time. Of course, you need the skills and expertise, but at the end of the day, it still comes down to the time you’re willing to invest.
Luo: Putting time alone isn’t enough. It has to be a fifty-fifty thing. You need to be a genius-level product manager, and at the same time, you have to give yourself fully to the work.
Li: Indeed. In this business, you need to live alongside your design, engineering, and product teams. You can’t just sit back and show up for reviews once in a while just because your're the boss. That simply doesn’t work.
Luo: Maybe that’s really how those old-world ICE car bosses do. When Lei Jun said he was entering the EV game, did you feel any pressure?
Li: Not at all. In fact, Lei even called me for that once. We talked for almost two hours. I actually had a late-night interview scheduled with an overseas candidate, but he just kept me on the line, so the interview kept getting pushed later. He asked me a lot of things, about my view of Tesla, about BYD, about Huawei, and we went really deep.
In the end, he asked me, "If you could only give me one piece of advice, what would it be?" And I told him: "Don’t use any proxies. Just go all in yourself, and you’ll succeed." That was the only advice I gave him. And later on, whenever we faced challenges, Lei Jun and his team really helped us a lot.
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